Do you have to be/understand Chinese to be a good TCM doc? Why?

I do not read Chinese.

But I have a good hunch that if I did it would take my practice to another level. I still think one can be a great doc without reading Chinese but you have more potential for "greatness" if you add reading Chinese to your skills. Reading material in its original language must offer something more than a translated version.

Lorne
www.acubalance.ca
www.prodseminars.com

I don't speak or read Chinese, but I wish I did, mainly so that I would have greater access to the enormous body of clinical research, journals and case studies available in Chinese. However, I don't think that Chinese M.D.'s who practice western medicine in Shanghai, for example, find it necessary to learn english, or french, or german, or spanish to practice.

Ray

IMO, this poll is ill-conceived and should be removed. It's just going to cause needless argument and confusion.

First of all, Lorne has not defined "greatness" in CM. Without such a definition, the question is a very poor one. Depending on how one define's greatness, one can answer this poll either way.

Secondly and as a corollary to my first point, because the practice of CM is so multi-factorial, of course you could be a great CM practitioner without reading Chinese. Again, because greatness has not been defined, one can prejudice any one of many different factors in the successful practice of CM.

Third, CM is not a single thing. In particular, acupuncture and the internal prescription of Chinese medicinals are very, very different modalities requiring very different knowledge and skill sets. So I think one would, at the very least have to ask the original question about one or the other of these modalities. Then, of course, one could also ask this same question vis a vis tuina, bone-setting, CM trauma medicine, etc., and you would probably get very different opinions and reasons for those opinions in each case.

Fourth and most importantly, asking someone who has never eaten sugar their opinion on the taste of sugar is meaningless since they have no practical basis for their opinion. It is exactly like the seven blind men and the elephant. Only those who actually do read Chinese can have any kind of truly informed response to what I take to be the meta- issue behind this question: In what way(s) might reading the Chinese medical literature in Chinese affect one's practice of CM.

Bob Flaws
Blue Poppy

While I respect Bob and his expertise, knowledge, writing, and experience in Chinese Medicine - I must respectfully disagree. I am actually happy to see this post and this poll, because there is a certain "elitist" tone to this discussion from those who do read and translate Chinese medicine into English. When I read this poll, I didn't even really register the word "great", and defining that qualification would be a tall order. I would say that there are a number of very good - and by this I mean clinically successful, knowledgeable, published, advanced-degreed, faculty, etc. - who don't read, write, translate, or speak Chinese. Conversely - there are a number of Chinese born and trained TCM practitioners that I know of who are not very good, and whom I would not recommend patient's to.

Would reading medical chinese expand a practitioner's access to a vastly expanded knowledge base than that currently available in English? Absolutely. Would this then translate into being a better clinical practitioner? Maybe, maybe not. It depends on the practitioner.

Just my two cents...

You really have not addressed my very specific objections to this poll -- primarily that its parameters are not well defined. Thus there can be lots of discussion but, in the end, the poll itself is meaningless.

Bob Flaws
Blue Poppy

here is one parameter in the favor of being a good english speaker,...I have had countless patients come to me because they have no damn idea what is going on with their Chinese practitioner. Confidence is lost and healing capacity falls. Just a parameter.

Bob,

i am not sure if you know tis, but anyone can create a poll on CMT. I know you have been involved in the language debate for a long time and probably could create better parameters than I. If you have the time create one here and see if we can have a meaningful discussion.

As for Devi advocates comments. I assume you mean an English patient seeing a CM doc who does not speak English. It has been my experience too that those living in western Canada prefer to see a TCM doc who can explain what and how we are treating and why. So it is true if you are treating English speaking patients you really do need to know the English language. As for reading medical Chinese. I just believe being able to read medical Chinese gives you access to literature in TCM that you otherwise cannot access. The more information, and high quality information, you can read on TCM I think the better you can practice TCM from diagnosis and creating a treatment plan to choosing points and medicals. To answer Bob's question about greatness i will try to be more clear. However good of a doctor you are now. If today you could miraculously read medical Chinese then you would not be any "better" of a doctor. But if you actually then read medical teaxt and articles by old doctors I think you would be able to practice our trade better than waiting for my good friend like Bob Flaws or Robert Helmer to translate it for you. And there are some concepts and words that just do not translate well into English. A good example is Qi.

Lorne
www.acubalance.ca
www.prodseminars.com

I agree with Bob in many respects. This kind of a poll will probably spark debate, perhaps even bickering. But I do not think this is necessarily a result of the question being ill-conceived.

ALL of the poll questions I read on sites like this one, or in Acupuncture Today are informal, not scientific. So, that same criticism should be leveled against all CMT polls and not just this one. Furthermore, all opinion polls will spark debate and bickering. Isn't that the purpose of such polls? To initiate discussion among opinionated peers?

David J. Karchmer
The Texas Center for Reproductive Acupuncture
Austin - San Antonio - Texas
www.texasfertilityacupuncture.com

Do you have to be Greek to be a good Western doctor?

This question should not even be dignified with a response.

Marc,

In fairness, I think this is not an apples-to-apples comparison. Most (if not all) major medical texts and treatises are available in English. If it were the case that 99% of all available print materials on western medicine were composed in Greek, then I think you would have a valid comparison.

David J. Karchmer
The Texas Center for Reproductive Acupuncture
Austin - San Antonio - Texas
www.texasfertilityacupuncture.com

Do you have to be French to be a good French cook? Do you have to speak Japanese to be good at judo? Do you have to speak English ( the birth place of soccer) to be a good soccer player? Do you have to speak German to be a good Freudian psychoanalyst?
Of course not!

After reflecting on the question a little more I believe that a question addresses the root more is "How much education is enough?". How much education is enough to be a great doctor? How many translations, new books or courses do we need to be great?

I am a huge fan of continuing education. I love to learn. New courses and books turn on the TCM geek in side of me. What I wonder is what is the most valuable thing I get from these books or courses? Is it the new technique, new use of a herb or new take on a TCM concept?
I believe that the excitement generated in me by the new learning ensures that I stay engaged in my medicine. This engagement I believe is the greatest value that we get from the new learning. We all know doctors that practice very differently, disagree on sometimes basic concepts and yet still get great results. ( whether or not a theory works in practice and helps our patients get better quicker or more often being the benchmark of a successful theory)

I read an interview with a Native American Healer that said he used less and less herbs as he got more experienced. Now he used only 1 herb to treat every patient he sees. His explanation was that he had such a strong relationship with that 1 plant that he could ask it do treat every patient he encountered.
Another way to look at this is to ask who is your greatest teacher?
Your patients.

I believe that as long as we stay engaged and focused on learning and growing, avoid getting to attached to our own theories so that we can learn and adapt to each new patient and the changing conditions in each patient that we are on the road to greatness.

Kaleb

Like Bob said you cannot ask someone who has never tasted sugar to describe its taste. Really, the best person to shed some light on this issue is someone, who like most of writing on this particular forum, once did not read medical Chinese and later in their practice learned and now have a very good handle on reading it.
We have heard from Bob Flaws. I like to call out Brad Batthews, Erin and Caylie See. Three relatively young docs (look to be under 40) who I know do read Chinese. Do you think your practice of Chinese medicine improved from reading Chinese. And if so by how much do you think it has taken you to "another level" ? less than 25% between 25-50% or greater than 50%.

Bob Flaws answers two basic diagnostic questions. He expresses that his understanding comes from knowing how to read the native language. This is where I think he makes a strong point. A good example of reading language. It is silly for people like myself to challenge this when I do not read Chinese so i do not know what it would be like and how it would change my understanding. I can appreciate Bob's frustration. I get the same way when colleagues speak out against specialization when they are generalist. How do they know practically? Only theoretically. Unless you are doing it you really cannot know. You can pretend and make up what you think but in the end you could not know. So English speaking Chinese (medical) reading docs let me know what has been your experience.

Lorne
www.acubalance.ca
www.prodseminars.com

In my first comment I was going to say much the same thing. Because most of us don't speak Chinese and would like to think of ourselves as at least on or way to becoming a great doc if not one already, then most of us are going to say yes.
However I still believe that speaking Chinese is not a prerequisite for being a great doc.

Kaleb

The choice to learn to read Chinese for me was a personal thing. I did not learn Chinese after learning CM, but rather learned and studied it at the same time I was was doing my TCM training. So, on that basis, I am unable to quantify the level at which it allowed my TCM practise to "improve". I should say that I know some very good TCM docs that do not read and write Chinese, so to make a blanket type of statement that the ability to read and write Chinese must somehow make someone a better practitioner is questionable.
For me the choice to learn to read the Chinese came out of a personal choice: simply put, I found my own personal studies of TCM to be somehow more enriched for me by also learning the language. Does this make me a better practitioner than someone who does not read the language? Probably not, but I have not tasted from that particular sugarbowl (as I said, I learned the language and the medicine at the same time).
I do know, from experience, that knowing certain Chinese characters does add meaning to some aspects of CM practise. For example, in the acupuncture modality, the WHO system of numbering the acupoints removes the deep and inherent meaning that was ascribed to the points by the ancients. Personally, I do not know many of the point numbers, but lets take a look at H7. In Chinese, this point is called "shen men". Most of us know about the concept of "shen" (Spirit) even if we do not know the Chinese language. "Shen Men" can be roughly translated as "Spirit Gate", or "Spirit Door". If we look at some of the indications for the use of this point, we will see that many relate to distubed Shen, hence its name directly relates to its use.
My first acupuncture teacher Dr Warren Fischer was completely fluent in Chinese. He was the first Canadian to ever do the full 5-year TCM Degree program at the Beijing University of Traditional CM and Pharmacology (Beijing Zhongyi Yao Da Xue), and something he said always stuck with me. He said: All the acupoints have very deep and significant names that point to their use in practise. The numbers have no meaning clinically.
That being said, does my knowing the Chinese names for the acupoints make me a better practitioner? Again, probably not, but it absolutely enriches my own personal relationship with CM, and, ultimately, my feeling is that ANYTHING we can do as practitioners that will deepen our own relationship with CM must also make our practise stronger. That should not be limited only to language.

Brad Matthews
Dr TCM
www.nswellness.ca

The debate as to Chinese language's role in being a good practitioner is an iteration of a concept. Undeniably, there is depth, lineage and information in the characters, and Chinese language is lovely in that it represents layers of meaning, which can imbue our practices, but whether you speak the language or not, using the principles of critical thinking and application in your practice is the essence of learning Chinese.

Additionally, while it is valuable to peruse the Chinese databases for research, one could conceivably learn enough characters in a short amount of time to advance their technical knowledge, but going to the symphony, or just spending time with your patients may be as justifiable an avenue for broadening one's horizons as a Chinese practitioner, as the language itself. I think we would all acknowledge that Chinese medicine is a lifetime endeavor where we advance or own understanding and practice in a way that suits us as individuals and serves our patients. Perhaps that will include Chinese language for some and fortune cookies for others.

While I do believe it is true that one does not have to understand chinese to be a good doctor, I also know that we cannot just ignore where our knowledge comes from. The fact that we call ourselves practitioners of chinese medicine implies, obviously, that our system of practice comes from china. So at some point some one or many some ones have had to and have to continue translating material from Chinese into english. Any learning we receive needs to be rooted in the recognition of the source language/ culture. Other wise how can we truly call ourselves a part of a chinese medical system. Do we have the right to say we are practitioners of Chinese medicine if we don't recognize where our knowledge comes from? Is this ethical?

If we don't spend the time learning Chinese and being able to read the source material of the medical system we practice, we are just going off the word of mouth of our teachers, whom we hope have translated the material correctly for us. It is like that old saying of, "don't trust anything unless it comes straight from the horses mouth." Being a doctor and being a scholar can be two different things. If we are going to use Chinese philisophical ideas in our Doctor practice then we should be able to back our thinking up. Having access to the source material in it's original form gives our thinking more weight, which translates into better clinical practice, IMHO.

I guess a question to ask is whether we can still call what we do Chinese medicine if it is not rooted in either classical chinese medicine or in what is practiced today in chinese hospitals. What is it that we do that we can say represents the "chinese" part of the medicine we practice?

For me, who does not read chinese yet, I hold out the deepest respect for the ones who have taken the time to learn chinese (or for the chinese to learn english). If it were not for them I, as for many of us, would not be practicing the medicine we do and nor would we so proudly declare to the world that we are the so called experts.

Trevor

Lorne, you asked whether or not we feel we are better practitioners due to our abilities in reading chinese.
For myself, I really couldn't say.
My venture into the Chinese language started with learning spoken chinese in order to talk to patients in Beijing during my training. I didn't want to rely on an interpreter as lots can get lost in translation. I wanted to hear first hand from the patients themselves, how they felt, what their symptoms were and how they were benefiting from their treatment. It wasn't until I was in China that I really started to learn the written language. My teacher Fan Zheng Lun wanted me to read and then re-read the Shang Han Lun and Jin Gui Yao Lue as he felt these were most relevant to practice in Vancouvers' wet (damp)-cold environment. So I started learning the characters in those texts (only about 1000 characters or so) and kind of went from there (it got really addicting). Since learning to read I have basically started over, reading basic texts (both classical and modern) in an attemp to re-learn Chinese Medicine. As long as we have good translators that adhere to a common terminology I think we are ok. There is still a great deal of work that needs to be done, considering that we (westerners) have only about 5% of the literature available to the Chinese (or Chinese reading folk). So really the greatest advantage in learning to read Chinese is being able to read the other 95% of literature including specialised texts in Gynecology, dermatology, etc.........
Whether or not that really makes you a better practitioner, who knows??

Our basic principle in practicing Chinese Medicine is helping our patients alleviate some of their suffering and improving their overall health. I know a great number of practitioners who cannot read chinese who do just that wonderfully.

Sorry for the babbling.

Eran

Thank you Brad, Caylie and Eran for sharing.

Here is what I am going to take away from this. You can help many patients without knowing how to read Chinese. However, being able to read medical Chinese would open your world to resources only in Chinese by more more than 90% compared to only reading Chinese. Being ad avid reader, I think this would be helpful. I am forever greatful to those English speaking docs who translated some valuable literature into English for all of us to read and learn from. Thank you Bob Flaws, Barbara Kirschbaum, and Mazin. I know there are more but these come to mind immediately.

Clinical practice is where it is at. This is where you become good. Pro D seminars was created to offer high end courses for those of us who cannot read Chinese. As Bob said at one of my seminars. Those who cannot read Chinese need to go to lots of seminars for 10 plus years where those who can read can get to the same place by reading on their own and probably within a year. So maybe it is not about will it make you a better doc to read Chinese but rather a better doctor faster. I guess those of us non Chinese readers will continue to learn together at weekend seminars and pay those who can read Chinese to teach us what they know. Ha! Once we all can read Chinese I will be able to close up Pro D as there may not be a need for it, but until then see you at the next course :o)

Lorne
www.acubalance.ca
www.prodseminars.com

I would love to see more research being published in English. There are so many studies going on in China about Chinese Medicine that non Chinese readers will never have access too.

These research articles would benefit people like me who don't read Chinese

Ryan