We live and die by the sword called science (and Media)

tcmlorne
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Joined: 2007-05-08

Here are some recent headlines from a study released on Oct 16,2007 about IVF & Acupuncture:

"Acupuncture 'may cut IVF chances'

"Acupuncture appears to cut the chances of successful IVF, research suggests"

"The results of our study suggest women having fertility treatment should not be advised to have acupuncture"
Dr LaTasha Craig
University of Oklahoma

Unfortunately perceived ideas can be more influential in ones course of action than facts. Research (do we trust this word??) that gossip (actual lies) can influence one's decision even though there own experience does not support the lies. I am curious how this will affect those treating mainly infertility and who rely on IVF clients as there patient load. I think even though there are many more studies supporting acupuncture benefiting IVF that the one or two studies suggesting the opposite could plant enough doubt and fear for patients to abandon acupuncture treatments.

I do want to have some discussion around this study as a jumping off point about how we practice and also our ethical responsibility to our patients regarding science and Chinese medicine.

I hope others will make comments as these studies have made us accessible to the public but they can also bury us. It remind me of the studies about neck adjustments by chiropractors. I still know many who will not allow their necks to be adjusted. It was harmful as whole to their profession.



tcmlorne
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Posts: 304
Joined: 2007-05-08
First do no harm

I find it hard to believe that acupuncture on transfer day can reduce pregnancy rates. I also was surprised that one or two treatments could dramatically improve pregnancy rates with IVF. I have never thought of my medicine as one disease-one treatment - 100 %cure. I believe we help with fertility issues when we get the cause of the imbalance and correct the imbalance by treating the underlying pattern. This treatment can last from 3 months to a year. Lets put aside for a moment that there are still more studies supporting the acupuncture treatment on transfer day than there are against acupuncture. It is still are responsibility to do no harm and do what is in the best interest of the patient. For me that is looking at the study, discussing the study with both RE's and acupuncture colleagues. Which I have started. Hopefully they will join in this discussion and share their views.

Some of the points that they have highlighted are:
* There are few that support the negative effect and many more that shoe acupuncture benefits IVF when done on transfer day
* Sticking to research protocols is poor Chinese medicine practice.
* The points in the Paulus study are by far not the best point combination.
* Acupuncture and Chinese medicine has a great positive impact when used during the preconception phase (3-6 months) an IVF transfer.
* Those who adopted the western medical approach at the expense of Chinese medicine principles will now suffer the plight of selling out.
* The more you try to practice based on scientific studies the more you move away form what you know (The Dao) and the less effective your treatments become. Also, it is harder to serve your patients and connect to their soul when you are caught up in science and protocols.

I have heard Randine warn those of us who specialize in treating infertility that we are playing a dangerous game by trying to please the RE's at the expense of how our medicine is meant to practiced. Randine, I hope you can add to what you think the impact of these negative studies have on our practice. More importantly, to remind us of the strength and effectiveness our medicine and why it has survived for thousands of years without the assistance of western science.

Lorne
www.acubalance.ca
www.prodseminars.com



Randine Lewis
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Joined: 2007-10-16
Live and Die by the Sword

Randine Lewis
http://www.thefertilesoul.com/
Thanks for bringing this topic up, Lorne. When we try to make our medicine 'research' based, we limit it to what shows up in the laboratory. Studies by their very nature will go back and forth, back and forth. Acupuncture helps. Acupuncture doesn't help. Herbs have "X" known effect. Herbs are harmful. And we all know that the observer impacts the outcome of any study. Regarding the recent study referenced - it appears that there were many other factors at play, like driving through heavy traffic the day of transfer to get acupuncture performed. When we limit the unlimited capacities of our medicine to protocol, we limit the results. I would never ask a patient to add more stress to the already overwhelming tension involved in an IVF transfer and make sure they drive on over for a treatment prior to or immediately after transfer. It may be part of a scientific study (which might appear to validate it), but it just doesn't make sense. Let's not lose sight of the big picture.
Research oriented methods require us to take apart life, separate it into its individual systems, subsystems, organs, tissues, cells, and chemical response; and remove the 'living' aspect from the equation. Requiring a particular acupuncture protocol the day of transfer simply because it is part of the research protocol flies in the face of our medicine's basis. We treat individuals individually - body, mind, and soul. If a treatment adds stress, we don't do it. If a body/mind/soul has said "no" to life, forcing certain needles on transfer day is not going to make it say, "yes." If we are treating fertility difficulties, depression, or a terminal illness, what are we as practitioners doing to help our patients say "yes" to life? I believe that this is where our focus needs to go. If we become puppets of scientific research protocols, we will let Western medicine determine our future in the West.
We all know that what we focus on is magnified. We also know that everything we resist becomes stronger. I, for one, am not joining in on this fight. The results of the study don't bother me a bit. It is, after all, merely a study. Instead of trying to prove that we are impacting the individual veins on the leaves of a tree, let's do what we do best. Let's go back and nourish our roots a little more.



Needle Doc
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Joined: 2007-09-22
They need to look at how they practice first

First, I wonder if the news has it right. They rarely do.

Regardless, Has western med been honest about how the IVF affects the health of the babies they are producing? What about the mothers who take all those high dosages of hormones, how are they affected? You would think if long tern HRT was dangerous then extremely high dosages of HRT over a short term can also be harmful.

It is good they are looking at what works and what does not work. But I think they need have a good long look at how they practice before they "police" us. Check out the video



Stephanie Curran
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Joined: 2007-01-30
herbal half-life?

Thanks for the heads up on this latest research Lorne and for starting this thread. Your closing sentence very much resonated with me Randine - great imagery and well said!

"Instead of trying to prove that we are impacting the individual veins on the leaves of a tree, let's do what we do best. Let's go back and nourish our roots a little more."

I've posed the following enquiry to several colleagues and so far know one has an answer. I would imagine that the details, if they're known, would be helpful to many of us as we try to navigate our eastern knowledge in the western world.....

I'm wondering if anyone knows of any literature/data on what the half-life of chinese medicinals are in the body? I imagine that it might be different for each medicinal in the same way that western pharmeceudicals are varied, but a general/average time frame would fine.

I know that this is a very 'western' question but I have been asked to look into this by the RE I work with. As a result of the Copenhagen study and a conference he just attended (Alice Domar was a speaker), he has become uncertain about ART patients taking herbs, even prior to their cycles. He is concerned with any CM interactions there might be with stim meds as women enter an IVF cycle. As there have been no large RCT's done in this area (yet!), he would like women to stop any herbs I have prescribed before their stim cycle begins and we're discussing what the appropriate time frame should be on this.

The RE here is a big supportor of acu (for now anyhow) but as Lorne says, this wave of latest research gives good reason to not be reliant on a western/IVF approach to practising TCM.

Thanks for any thoughts and/or leads.
Stephanie
www.elementscentre.ca



Devils Advocate
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Joined: 2007-10-17
We should know better, shame on us...

I know I know, the damn Paulus study changed clinical medicine more drastically than any other study...blah blah blah...this wasn't acupuncture at all anyway! The only reason we claimed it to be 'acupuncture' was because the results were so good. I really think it is time we start teaching our western medical counterparts about the true essence of TCM, and that it is necessary to use different methods to determine its validity. After all, we are all doctors, we should be able to figure this out, right?!?



tcmlorne
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Posts: 304
Joined: 2007-05-08
Us against them

I do not really think it is about "us against them". If we do not trx to do some form of research then how do we know if it is effective? I am sure patients do not like needles and would not spend their time or money if they knew it was not beneficial. We just need to make sure the research is good research and that we do not ry to fit a square peg into a round hole. Hopefully, if we keep at it we will find a way to study our art of acupuncture. Also, maybe the art is fine and it is the practitioner skills that determines the results.

I do agree with you that we need to do more out reach and education about the other great benefits of what our medicine offers in gynecology and infertility.

I guess by your name, that even if i agree with you, you will find a way to argue with me?

Lorne
www.acubalance.ca
www.prodseminars.com



Needle Doc
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Posts: 11
Joined: 2007-09-22
west med bites

I Do not think western medicine basj=king i sthe answer. Althogh the video is enlightening and concerning I agree with tcmloren that it is not about "us against them"

If you really think about, most western drugs and interventions are not proven scientifivally to work. And for those that do work we do not know why just like science is not sure how acupuncture works.

tcmloren, what do you suggest is an effective means of educating?



Webdoktor
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Joined: 2006-11-24
College of physicians and surgeons...

these are the people we need to talk to...
these are the governing bodies that make doctors live in fear of recommending TCM unless studies say it is OK...but what studies do they choose to look at and how well are these studies done.
Do ethics committees make these decisions for their college? If so, who are these people and how can we go about educating them on how RCTs, sham, and protocol-like medicine does not reflect the efficacy of TCM?
Ideas,..how do we properly approach this?



abundantspring
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Posts: 5
Joined: 2007-09-13
Widening the camera angle

Lorne and Randine are spot on about the limitations of western research. RCTs were primarily developed to establish efficacy and safety of pharmaceuticals. Forgive me for stating the obvious, but acupuncture is not a pharmaceutical. It is important for us not to allow the baby to be thrown out with the bathwater so to speak, just because one study observed an undesirable outcome. One adverse study in the field of reproductive endocrinology does not disprove its entire practice. Accordingly, this single study does not disprove acupuncture in the field of reproductive medicine as a whole.

This particular IVF study is interesting, and from my perspective, there is something to gain from it. In the interest of full disclosure, I was one of the acupuncturists who worked on it. I am not, however, concerned about the outcome or regret being a part of it. If I could go back and do it again, I would advocate for onsite acupuncture versus off site. Even so, I doubt we would see the same results in the original Paulus study even with this change. Let us not overlook the outcome measure in the Paulus study was the appearance of a gestational sac, not a take home baby – not even the observation of a heartbeat. How many of us have had a patient with this outcome and no take home baby? I’m guessing more than a few.

Regardless, this study is not a signal that acupuncture does not work – quite the opposite. In my mind, it provides an opportunity to discuss with patient and western doctor alike why acupuncture research is self-limiting as it is done currently. I think it provides some evidence that day of ET acupuncture is not as effective as the original Paulus study suggests. Something many of us already suspected in our practices and in discussions with colleagues. (I also think it provides some insight as to just how stressful that day of transfer can really be on our patients.)

From my perspective, we can continue to bemoan western research. Or, we can choose to do something about how we are represented in it. Consider Cridennda and Magarelli’s work. While several of their projects still apply a slightly modified Paulus protocol, some also incorporate (albeit standardized) what could be generalized as pre-conception care. Their outcomes thus far appear to be quite successful. Is this the way we all should practice? Absolutely not. But this research does provide a catalyst for dialogue with western physicians.

My intention is for the couples I work with to conceive and hold open that possibility for them. I encourage them to do the same. However, I am not attached to this outcome. Some will conceive, some will not, but that is for another post. The beauty of TCM is that we evaluate and treat the individual, not a research subject who only receives a standardized protocol. Our intention is to address mind, body and spirit.

Research can be used as a way of educating the public and western medical community alike. If acupuncture is to be studied within this paradigm, we as practitioners must begin to take an interest in designing it so that it reflects the way we practice in the field, or with ecological validity. We must begin designing studies that as a minimum take into consideration our differential diagnosis. This is not easily measured or standardized by a randomized control trial, but it is possible. We can be the influence that widens that camera angle from the “veins of the leaf of the tree” to the existence of a tree among many.

Warmly,
lee.

Lee Hullender, LAc
www.abundantspring.com

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Lee Hullender, LAc